Yesterday Ben Drawbaugh and I got into it a little back and forth on Twitter about the HTPC and using it as a HTPC directly connected to your display. Whether that is your tv, your projector or some other display medium or in the case of Ben using your HTPC more as a server in a closet up and out of the way basically running as a headless unit serving up extenders.
Back in July Ben and myself joined Josh (the other Josh) and Adam on Entertainment 2.0 Episode 37 part 1 and Part 2 in which we discussed this very topic. If you haven’t listened to the episodes I highly recommend it, some great conversations going back and forth and a ton of info. On both parts I’ve given my stance, PC’s directly connected to a display (depending on the display) are a great thing, with virtually unlimited codec support, and a plethora of content like Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, ect… Having a dedicated HTPC directly connected to your display beats out any extender out there.
I’ve been running a fully dedicated HTPC directly connected to at least one main display in my home for years, and I will never go away from that method for as long as extenders (read Windows Media Center Extenders) lack the ability to perform just as good, if not better, than a dedicated HTPC. Until you can get blu ray players that are also extenders in the same GUI front end, and until you can get full Flash playback on extenders, HTPC’s (in my point of view) are honestly the best way to go.
Now to the poll… what is your point of view? Do you Extender it? or Do you HTPC it?
Five+ year veteran media center user. Over the years I have built over 20 media center pc's whether it has been to upgrade an existing system in my setup, or to build a media center pc (HTPC) for friends or family. My other passion besides HTPC's and Media Center is Home Theater. After purchasing my first home with a blank slate in the basement, I completely finished it off, building a home theater with a 120" front projection setup and 7.1 surround sound system. So between Media Center and Home theater that is what you'll find me talking about here. Like Adam Thursby, between the two of us are probably the only Zune users you'll find. I started out with an iPod nano but eventually found my way to the Zune and the Zune software and never looked back. Also like Josh Pollard I too am a mobile phone/smart phone gadget nerd. In my "day job" one of my job responsibilities is to test out new phones, specifically windows mobile phones, and test them out with our exchange server and trouble shoot end user issues. I am also a Blackberry convert as I recently got a Blackberry Storm for personal use and absolutely love it! I am a huge forum troll, you can find me on AVSforums, TGB, Missingremote, Hardforums, and even the AU media center forums. I like to help out where I can when it comes to HTPC's and media center in general, so if there are questions to be had, I try to answer them the best I can.
Five+ year veteran media center user. Over the years I have built over 20 media center pc's whether it has been to upgrade an existing system in my setup, or to build a media center pc (HTPC) for friends or family. My other passion besides HTPC's and Media Center is Home Theater. After purchasing my first home with a blank slate in the basement, I completely finished it off, building a home theater with a 120" front projection setup and 7.1 surround sound system. So between Media Center and Home theater that is what you'll find me talking about here. Like Adam Thursby, between the two of us are probably the only Zune users you'll find. I started out with an iPod nano but eventually found my way to the Zune and the Zune software and never looked back. Also like Josh Pollard I too am a mobile phone/smart phone gadget nerd. In my "day job" one of my job responsibilities is to test out new phones, specifically windows mobile phones, and test them out with our exchange server and trouble shoot end user issues. I am also a Blackberry convert as I recently got a Blackberry Storm for personal use and absolutely love it! I am a huge forum troll, you can find me on AVSforums, TGB, Missingremote, Hardforums, and even the AU media center forums. I like to help out where I can when it comes to HTPC's and media center in general, so if there are questions to be had, I try to answer them the best I can.
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I agree with you that a directly connected HTPC is a hands down winner if you have a single television system. If you use multiple televisions then with that scenario you have to deal with scheduling conflicts, wtv files all over the place, DRM issues, and multiple tuners.
My extenders cost me less than 100 bucks per TV, work great and are fanless.
ooooh, it's pretty even! I just started using my 360 as an extender in my bedroom. Been using an HTPC for years with zero Drawbaughesk problem.
I think the answers to this poll will be directly related to which HTPC platform is used. If MS were to come out with a $170 HTPC extender that was comparable to the SageTV HD Theater in terms of capability, I think it would be a big seller.
If you're going to go to the trouble of having an HTPC, why wouldn't you want to make that HTPC serve all media from on computer and each TV have a small & silent, plug-&-play box. If MS had such a box…
I use SageTV (yeah I know you know that) and have one server in the office which I use on rare occasions for playback, 3 (currently active) extenders and one laptop that uses placeshifter. I do also have one additional SD-only extender that is used on rare occasion in the workshop.
I have a problem with your poll questions because you don't ask about having multiple HTPCs. If you have multiple TVs that you want to use a DVR on then Extenders win hands down because the guide and to be recorded list is the same across all TVs.
The only benefit to a HD snob who prefers a stand-alone Blu-ray player to a PC and who doesn't download pirated content is the ability to fast forward and still get audio. And for this you have to put up with the ocasional mouse or keyboard requirement, overscan and jitter issues. And no screensaver.
I've always used a pc hooked up to my LCD for Media Center. I've never been happy with the extender platform the MS has had in the past which includes the xbox360. If I can't get the same or similar experience on an extender box tha that matches my HTPC, I'll just stick to what I have. I need to be able to use Netflix, stream my DVDs and Blu-rays in there native format with no codec or file format monkey business. My sister would love to access all my content, and record her shows using cable card, but that means either and extender for DVR purposes or and HTPC for all other content that is not compatable with extenders.
It's quite a bit of work to adjust my DVD collection into a format that is suitable for extenders. Sage has a great extender platform and it gives me what I want, but the only exception to that is that the Sage platform doesn't support cable card. With My Movies being ported over to Sage it's just one more reason for me to move to that platform. Cable Card is the only thing holding me back even though I've been an avid Media Center user since XPMCE2005. teddyboy16 on TGB
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This post was mentioned on Twitter by digimediazone: Poll: HTPC vs. Extender – Yesterday Ben Drawbaugh and I got into it a little back and forth on Twitter about the HT… http://ow.ly/16k2Ql…
If you re-read what I wrote above, I said “main display” where by the majority of your media consumption takes place. Where you watch all your movies, and foot ball games, ect…
This all started yesterday with Josh P saying he was moving his HTPC to his tv (his main display).
And I saying not everyone has your issues, yes media center on a htpc overscans the content, big deal, not an issue, doesn't effect or deter from how you consume your media, its not a technical issue that takes away from anything.
Screen saver? who uses those for a dedicated htpc? I sure don't.
Blu ray, I have both a dedicated blu ray play and my htpc with a BD drive and the latest power dvd, I don't have a 1080p display (in my case projector) so I no matter what I have to deal with jitter/jutter issues as I can't get 24hz input into my projector to avoid 3:2 pulldown issues.
I can also tell you again, as I've said before, I never have to use a keyboard or mouse for 99.9999% of the things I do with my thpc, it all is done via the Microsoft usb IR receiver and my logitech harmony remote.
– Josh
The overscan issue is distracting to me. Like I said, just because you accept the problems, doesn't mean they don't exist (same goes for the K+B).
I really like how the 360 dims the screen when I walk away and leave a menu on, it's cool and something the MC won't do.
My judder issues were with content recorded via my DCT and were well documented in VMC, it might be worth another look in 7MC. I could go on and one about why BD playback on MC isn't there yet, but the one I'll mention is the inability to easily switch between watching a BD and using MC. As it stands now I can pause my BD to schedule a recording I thought of just by switching inputs. This is much faster than hoping the BD resumes — man I hate how most BDs resume.
I guess what is considered a “problem” or “issue” is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at it from the eyes of a noob who's never used a htpc before and just getting into it, and not necessarily knowing what overscan really is (other than the fact if you have it your entire desktop isn't on the screen) then it doesn't affect you.
As far as your judder/jitter issues and DCT tuners I don't see how using an extender negates that issue. Unless it has to do with a playback issue on the pc?
Again you keep referring to the Keyboard and Mouse issue, if you stay within the media center environment and yes with the latest PowerDVD which has a native media center plugin, you can go in and out of PowerDVD within media center and resume without any issues at all.
I never have to use a Keyboard and Mouse for every day normal HTPC use, never! The thing is I don't get is if you use an extender, which is basically the same identical interface to Media Center on a pc what is so different that you need a keyboard and mouse?
Everyone knows that BD playback on PC's aren't all there, we get that, I am not arguing that, that is a moot point here. If you use a dedicated HTPC for everything you do on an extender and switch inputs between your your dedicated BD player and your HTPC what is any different than the setup you have now?
All the issues that were once there, in the early years of dedicated HTPC are all but gone, like overscan issues where your entire desktop edges were off the screen so you couldn't even see the start menu/task bar. 1:1 pixel mapping, ect… all of those issues with newer pc friendly tv's and newer video cards and drivers have all but resolved any and all of those issues.
Hooking up a pc to a tv, is one of the most trivial things to do now days, and has no bearing on how poorly you may perceive a dedicated HTPC to a display and using it as such on a daily basis.
– Josh
No, the judder issue with DCT content didn't occur on Extenders, only on a PC.
As for overscan, I'm not talking about the overscan that video cards sometimes introduce. I'm talking about the application of Media Center, it is even there when you play content back via Media Center in a Window, ie not full screen. I'm not trying to say it is a problem for everyone, just that it is a problem for me.
Extenders don't support a keyboard or a mouse. Sometimes in MC another popup from another application will come up on top of MC, and hitting enter doesn't always clear it, so you need the keyboard or mouse to clear it. There are other examples, the bottom line is that if it was possible to launch MC instead of Explorer.exe and a keyboard or mouse was never needed, then it'd be a better solution for the living room — I wish I would've noted every time I had to turn on my mouse when I had it connected to the TV so I could list them now. I do know it was at least once a month — once ever is too many.
As Mr. Josh schalicto put it… your issues are “Drawbaughesk” and sounds like they are limited to your personal experiences as myself an many others don't have said issues and will leave it at that.
I can tell you that its about eh, once every 6 months when I feel like goofing around with driver updates, or maybe the occasional new plugin is when I ever pull out the keyboard or mouse, but other than that never for daily use do I need one.
– Josh
I have a PC directly connected to my main TV and a 360 connected to the small TV upstairs.
Currently using 360 extenders at both TVs with my 7MC at my desk next to my primary PC.
Currently using 360 extenders at both TVs with my 7MC at my desk next to my primary PC.
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I agree with you that a directly connected HTPC is a hands down winner if you have a single television system. If you use multiple televisions then with that scenario you have to deal with scheduling conflicts, wtv files all over the place, DRM issues, and multiple tuners.
My extenders cost me less than 100 bucks per TV, work great and are fanless.
ooooh, it's pretty even! I just started using my 360 as an extender in my bedroom. Been using an HTPC for years with zero Drawbaughesk problem.
I think the answers to this poll will be directly related to which HTPC platform is used. If MS were to come out with a $170 HTPC extender that was comparable to the SageTV HD Theater in terms of capability, I think it would be a big seller.
If you're going to go to the trouble of having an HTPC, why wouldn't you want to make that HTPC serve all media from on computer and each TV have a small & silent, plug-&-play box. If MS had such a box…
I use SageTV (yeah I know you know that) and have one server in the office which I use on rare occasions for playback, 3 (currently active) extenders and one laptop that uses placeshifter. I do also have one additional SD-only extender that is used on rare occasion in the workshop.
I have a problem with your poll questions because you don't ask about having multiple HTPCs. If you have multiple TVs that you want to use a DVR on then Extenders win hands down because the guide and to be recorded list is the same across all TVs.
The only benefit to a HD snob who prefers a stand-alone Blu-ray player to a PC and who doesn't download pirated content is the ability to fast forward and still get audio. And for this you have to put up with the ocasional mouse or keyboard requirement, overscan and jitter issues. And no screensaver.
I've always used a pc hooked up to my LCD for Media Center. I've never been happy with the extender platform the MS has had in the past which includes the xbox360. If I can't get the same or similar experience on an extender box tha that matches my HTPC, I'll just stick to what I have. I need to be able to use Netflix, stream my DVDs and Blu-rays in there native format with no codec or file format monkey business. My sister would love to access all my content, and record her shows using cable card, but that means either and extender for DVR purposes or and HTPC for all other content that is not compatable with extenders.
It's quite a bit of work to adjust my DVD collection into a format that is suitable for extenders. Sage has a great extender platform and it gives me what I want, but the only exception to that is that the Sage platform doesn't support cable card. With My Movies being ported over to Sage it's just one more reason for me to move to that platform. Cable Card is the only thing holding me back even though I've been an avid Media Center user since XPMCE2005. teddyboy16 on TGB
Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by digimediazone: Poll: HTPC vs. Extender – Yesterday Ben Drawbaugh and I got into it a little back and forth on Twitter about the HT… http://ow.ly/16k2Ql…
If you re-read what I wrote above, I said “main display” where by the majority of your media consumption takes place. Where you watch all your movies, and foot ball games, ect…
This all started yesterday with Josh P saying he was moving his HTPC to his tv (his main display).
And I saying not everyone has your issues, yes media center on a htpc overscans the content, big deal, not an issue, doesn't effect or deter from how you consume your media, its not a technical issue that takes away from anything.
Screen saver? who uses those for a dedicated htpc? I sure don't.
Blu ray, I have both a dedicated blu ray play and my htpc with a BD drive and the latest power dvd, I don't have a 1080p display (in my case projector) so I no matter what I have to deal with jitter/jutter issues as I can't get 24hz input into my projector to avoid 3:2 pulldown issues.
I can also tell you again, as I've said before, I never have to use a keyboard or mouse for 99.9999% of the things I do with my thpc, it all is done via the Microsoft usb IR receiver and my logitech harmony remote.
– Josh
The overscan issue is distracting to me. Like I said, just because you accept the problems, doesn't mean they don't exist (same goes for the K+B).
I really like how the 360 dims the screen when I walk away and leave a menu on, it's cool and something the MC won't do.
My judder issues were with content recorded via my DCT and were well documented in VMC, it might be worth another look in 7MC. I could go on and one about why BD playback on MC isn't there yet, but the one I'll mention is the inability to easily switch between watching a BD and using MC. As it stands now I can pause my BD to schedule a recording I thought of just by switching inputs. This is much faster than hoping the BD resumes — man I hate how most BDs resume.
I guess what is considered a “problem” or “issue” is in the eye of the beholder. If you look at it from the eyes of a noob who's never used a htpc before and just getting into it, and not necessarily knowing what overscan really is (other than the fact if you have it your entire desktop isn't on the screen) then it doesn't affect you.
As far as your judder/jitter issues and DCT tuners I don't see how using an extender negates that issue. Unless it has to do with a playback issue on the pc?
Again you keep referring to the Keyboard and Mouse issue, if you stay within the media center environment and yes with the latest PowerDVD which has a native media center plugin, you can go in and out of PowerDVD within media center and resume without any issues at all.
I never have to use a Keyboard and Mouse for every day normal HTPC use, never! The thing is I don't get is if you use an extender, which is basically the same identical interface to Media Center on a pc what is so different that you need a keyboard and mouse?
Everyone knows that BD playback on PC's aren't all there, we get that, I am not arguing that, that is a moot point here. If you use a dedicated HTPC for everything you do on an extender and switch inputs between your your dedicated BD player and your HTPC what is any different than the setup you have now?
All the issues that were once there, in the early years of dedicated HTPC are all but gone, like overscan issues where your entire desktop edges were off the screen so you couldn't even see the start menu/task bar. 1:1 pixel mapping, ect… all of those issues with newer pc friendly tv's and newer video cards and drivers have all but resolved any and all of those issues.
Hooking up a pc to a tv, is one of the most trivial things to do now days, and has no bearing on how poorly you may perceive a dedicated HTPC to a display and using it as such on a daily basis.
– Josh
No, the judder issue with DCT content didn't occur on Extenders, only on a PC.
As for overscan, I'm not talking about the overscan that video cards sometimes introduce. I'm talking about the application of Media Center, it is even there when you play content back via Media Center in a Window, ie not full screen. I'm not trying to say it is a problem for everyone, just that it is a problem for me.
Extenders don't support a keyboard or a mouse. Sometimes in MC another popup from another application will come up on top of MC, and hitting enter doesn't always clear it, so you need the keyboard or mouse to clear it. There are other examples, the bottom line is that if it was possible to launch MC instead of Explorer.exe and a keyboard or mouse was never needed, then it'd be a better solution for the living room — I wish I would've noted every time I had to turn on my mouse when I had it connected to the TV so I could list them now. I do know it was at least once a month — once ever is too many.
As Mr. Josh schalicto put it… your issues are “Drawbaughesk” and sounds like they are limited to your personal experiences as myself an many others don't have said issues and will leave it at that.
I can tell you that its about eh, once every 6 months when I feel like goofing around with driver updates, or maybe the occasional new plugin is when I ever pull out the keyboard or mouse, but other than that never for daily use do I need one.
– Josh
I have a PC directly connected to my main TV and a 360 connected to the small TV upstairs.
Currently using 360 extenders at both TVs with my 7MC at my desk next to my primary PC.
Currently using 360 extenders at both TVs with my 7MC at my desk next to my primary PC.