Thanks for joining us for another show this week! This time we step away from discussing the latest Media Center news and even expand the show for the week to talk less about Media Center specifically and more about HTPCs in general. For Episode 43, Josh and I are joined by Andy VanTil, creator of DVR-MS Toolbox and Brent Evans of Geektonic to try and figure out why HTPCs haven’t taken off considering the value they add to people’s media enjoyment.
It’s another long one this week but you’ll want to listen to the whole show. Andy and Brent share why they believe HTPCs haven’t become mainstream and how that might change in the future. We hope you enjoy it!
Don’t forget to leave us comments here, email us using the contact page or, leave a voicemail at 1-877-856-4933 and we’ll get your comments on the show. We appreciate our listeners and your continued support!
Click Here to download Episode 43
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[…] The Digital Media Zone » Blog Archive » Entertainment 2.0-Episode 43: Why Aren’t HTPCs Mainstrea… http://www.thedigitalmediazone.com/2009/08/28/entertainment-20-episode-43-why-aren%E2%80%99t-htpcs-mainstream – view page – cached 28 August 2009 by Adam Thursby 60 views View commentsComments Tags: Andy VanTil, brent evans, Entertainment 2.0, media center — From the page […]
Thanks for having me on the show guys! I really enjoyed it.
I posted more thoughts on the HTPC/Mainstream topic here at Geektonic: http://www.geektonic.com/2009/08/why-home-theat…
And noticed Phil Lozen has an earlier post on the subject that was spot-on also here: http://livinghighdef.com/wordpress/?p=458
You guys are making things too difficult. HD is hard. Satellite/Digital Cable is hard. A cluster (or extenders) can get hard. A basic HTPC can be as simply as connecting analog cable and composite out to your TV. (Gateway sells one for $729)
If you want to expand HTPC to the masses concentrate on analog (or ATSC) in, composite out, central repository for pics, music, and the ability to view on other PCs in the house (webguide).
I suspect that will satisfy the vast majority of folks. If they want to learn more and do some advanced things those options are open to them.
If they want “premium” content (digital cable or satellite, especially HD), then folks will most likely move to a cable company or satellite set-top box, because it will always be difficult.
I dropped HBO because I didn't want to deal with IR and cable boxes. I still record more TV than I can watch.
Robert
rmeden/Robert,
First off HD is NOT hard. ATSC is the simplest form of HD for pc's and it works well. The main problem is analog/ntsc is old and busted. No one wants SD. Everyone wants premium HD. Monday night football anyone (ESPN HD)????
Also things like Webguide aren't standard, there is no app store, so unless you are an enthusiast main stream people would have no clue what webguide is, or even how to use it/set it up.
Very enjoyable discussion, guys. But I think you overlooked one of the key (if not *the* key) reasons HTPCs aren't mainstream. HTPCs are not enthusiast level; they're *hobbyist* level. Setting up a proper HTPC network with all the various extenders and clearqam and other hd sattelite/cable signals requires the same investment and joy that building a model train set does.
One of you even brought up the question, if it were as simple as a tivo could it still even be considered an HTPC, or just a more advanced tivo. Look around at all the people you know that have HTPCs. Do they also re-install computers with relative frequency? (or at the very least is reinstalling a computer about as far from being a daunting task as possible?) Do they have multiple computers for themselves? (especially do they just have a machine for playing around with?) Those are hobbyists, not enthusiasts. And almost by definition, hobbyist is not mainstream.
I'd love to see more mainstream acceptance for HTPCs, and I love mine and my parents love the one i set up for them (when it works), but it's not quite ready for prime time.
I disagree “No one wants SD”. I do…. it's fine for many things.
I suspect many non-technical people who think they're watching HD really are watching SD. I also suspect many people with a small HD screens wouldn't notice the difference with a SD signal.
Heck, your example (ESPN HD) is hard. (I assume ESPN HD is not even available in clear QAM)
The show was about “mainstream” HTPC. I don't think we need HD to go mainstream. Taking HD out of the equation makes things *much* easier (and easier to go mainstream).
No one is talking about taking your HD away.
Robert
Really enjoyed the discussion.
You guys touched on it but to me, the knowledge and hatred of DRM is not mainstream. IMO people blindly buy into stuff and not realize the lock down they are buying into. The 'R' means 'Restriction', don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
So someone sees your sweet htpc and says Awesome! So I can play that season of Lost I just bought off of iTunes in full glory on my TV! um…well, no you can't. Well, that sucks. At least it will play all my music…er..yeah, same deal unless you bought it recently and paid attention to what you were buying or ripped it yourself.
Also, DVDs are starting to come with a digital copy. Cool! Well, no, not always.You bought that DVD thinking you could put the digital copy on the htpc (and not have go through all that ripping hassle) and yeah you could probably get it to play but guess what? 2 channel sound and most likely lower resolution or bit rate than a DVD. I haven't followed the specs of Managed Copy off of blu-ray very closely but I REALLY hope they do a better job.
Off topic… If MS wanted to really kick some a** they would let US build our own extenders. They are SO close with Windows 7 and home group. It is the tuner part that needs to be fixed so I can keep all that in a closet and have a nice clean solution in the living room like I have now except with a device that actually played all codecs.
Hmm. Well I regardless of whether we classify ourselves as hobbyist or enthusiast the resulting conclusion is the same. HTPCs in their current state are definitely not mainstream. I think we actually mostly agree.
I agree Scott – DRM knowledge is not mainstream either. Although more and more seem to be getting a little taste of DRM-free music these days whether they understand it or not.
I have hope for managed copy of Blu-ray, but the pessimist in me thinks they'll screw it up. Why? Because as mentioned in the podcast they really want for us to pay for the same media over and over.
I don't agree that softsled would help MC all that much. Yes, it would open up things for the enthusiasts, but most “regular” people wouldn't get it. Look at SageTV and the success they've had with hardware extenders – really at the expense of sales on their “client” aka softsled software. We love to have that as an option, but many of us would prefer the extender for its ease of use. This is also because the extenders can handle most file formats thrown at it though.
I don't think HD is hard – definitely not more difficult than SD. Getting premium/digital content is what is hard.
Oh yeah, Soft Sled was for me, not mainstream at all. 🙂
Okay, so let me get this straight (and great show by the way). You guys make fun of SageTV every chance you get, yet the person who maintains the very program that allows you to play the codecs and container formats that WMC doesn't support out of the box and that you guys extol the virtues of on every show uses SAGE? Does that tell you something?
You know, that “ugly” UI you complain about doesn't really matter when I'm actually watching my hi-def content on my Sage TV HD Theater (which by the way runs off of my Windows Home Server which WMC doesn't even do) that I didn't have to do a thing to in order for it to play. It's even funnier when one of you doesn't get Hi-Def into the house and the other doesn't even own a Hi-Def TV!
Okay, I'll shut up now. I seriously love your show, but give me a break on the Sage bashing.
I think they bash it because they don't really know it. I'm not offended in the least by Adam and Josh's Sage bashing because they know they'll end up SageTV users eventually. They really don't know how good we have it. But on this topic we're all in the same boat in my opinion. The two programs still have their pros and cons, but in the end we're all HTPC enthusiasts.
I'm far from offended (heck, it doesn't impact my enjoyment of Sage if someone else who has never used it doesn't like it). My entry into Sage started with my decision to go with a Windows Home Server box. Once I realized that I could run the htpc out of it onto a settop box that made NO noise, I was sold. Before that I had a HTPC below the TV in the entertainment center that I had to use a mouse and keyboard to control. Extremely low WAF and a pain to operate.
Since the switch to Sage running on WHS, I'm in heaven.
Robert/Brent,
HD may not be hard in your eyes but just as Adam and Josh pointed out and that I've said over and over and over again, Cable box. don't want it, don't want to pay for it. If I am building a HTPC or anyone I know builds a HTPC is to GET AWAY from cable boxes or other service providers STB's.
Second every person I show my setup to the first thing they ask is “can I watch Monday night football in HD?” or “Can I record this show or that show on HBO Sunday nights?” the stright forward answer is No, because of all the loop holes and costs associated with it.
Why would someone build a HTPC, then yet turn around and continue to rent a STB for a extremely high rental fee is beyond me.
I built my HTPC specifically because of the high rental fee's I was paying a year. I had 3 HD DVRs at one point with comcast, and that was $540 a year. In two years I paid back in full the cost of the rental fees by building my HTPC, only down side is I no longer have ESPN HD, or HBO HD, which in most cases is almost anyone I know has or wants to watch.
So yes HD is hard because the HD that really matters to most people isn't easily attainable in most situations, and cost friendly.
– Josh
[quote]So someone sees your sweet htpc and says Awesome! So I can play that season of Lost I just bought off of iTunes in full glory on my TV! um…well, no you can't.[/quote]
actually you can. but it requires you install itunes on your HTPC, then activate it, under the 5 activation allocation for itunes. You would then be able to play it on any of those 5 pc's that were activated under your itunes account.
It won't play in media center yes, but it will “technically” play on your htpc if directly connected to your display, ie no extenders.
Same goes for music, if it is playing back in itunes, and is part of the activated pc's list, then yes it will play.
– Josh
It tells me that Andy VanT has no taste 😉 Kidding aside, honestly I could care less who uses what. For me it comes down to my pocket book, and what I can afford, and for me it is Media Center. I already have a 360 that I use for gaming, primarily gaming. Never even considered it an extender until recently (month or so ago I just started to use it as an extender), And before that was the DMA-2100's, I picked up two linksys extenders for 1/2 the cost of one Sage HD 200 (read two DMA-2100's for $100 shipped bran new).
Whether it be because of close out sales or what not, doesn't matter to me, but it still cost me much less than what I'd want to pay to go to SageTV.
but yes in the end as Brent pointed out this is and will always be an enthusiast/hobbiest world and to each is their own.
– Josh
I sort of get what you're saying Josh. But I pay $9 per month for my HD cable box (not a DVR and I'm the only one in the house that even knows its there – it's just another HD channel to the family because it's integrated into my SageTV w/the HD-PVR. All other HD for the moment comes from QAM as we record a lot of local channel stuff as well.
I pay that extra $9 a month for the cable box simply to address that question people ask you: “can I watch Monday night football in HD.” I'm a sports fan and not getting a baseball, football or basketball game in Live HD is unacceptable in my home. I don't have any of the pay channels though since my server holds so many of my purchased movies – and has a more up-to-date, comprehensive collection then the likes of a pay channel.
See its not the movies ppl want. It the tv shows HBO and the like have, Sopranos, Dexter, True Blood, Entourage, ect….
and that is awesome you can get a HD only cable box for that cheap, Comcast here in Minneapolis charges the same rate, for HD only vs. HD DVR, in fact they charge your more if you have more than one HD only cable box, which forces you to take the HD DVR. If you want say two HD only boxes they charge you a digital outlet fee for $7 on top of the $12.95/month per box, so its cheaper to go the HD DVR route for some stupid reason.
Not everyone has the same situations, specially in today's economy not everyone wants or has the extra income to do what we do.
For me it is more of the “principle” of it all, I am boycotting Comcast TV because of their shady business practices and the fee's they charge, but that is a whole different story there.
– Josh
Ouch! That is pretty pricey. So what are you using as a Comcast alternative? I know some SageTV users have gone to DirecTV and Dish to avoid the CableCo's but I hold onto TWC for the QAM – even if its mostly the local channels.
I pulled a Ben D and was doing OTA ATSC for a while. I am still using Comcast for internet. With TV starting up again here shortly I am not sure what I will do.
– Josh
Again, I don't care who uses what, but it's the internet and it's fun to argue. That aside, I don't ever get the feeling that cost is the reason that Sage gets bashed on the podcast every week, it's the ugly UI.
Obviously, I would love a new car, (especially one that has a feature set that would make my life easier, like built in bluetooth or something else). I'm not going to because I just invested money in my current car. That is understandable. I don't get a good reason why Sage is continually bashed, especially always being prefaced with a “don't get me started about Sage”. If I had a 360 before I bought my Hd 200, I probably wouldn't have even given Sage a second thought. Now that I've used it though, even if I bought a 360 I wouldn't switch.
Everyone is right though. As enthusiasts, it's going to be whatever floats your boat. For me, only using OTA and no need to do a HDPVR/Cablecard solution, use of WHS and awesome codec support were my main reasons for going with it. The irony of babgvant using Sage still kills me though. 😀
Lost is an interesting example. Right now Netflix has Lost season 1 through 4 available for instant play. I use the VMC Netflix plug-in and I think it's great. The cheapest Netflix that allows unlimited instant play is about $9/mo, or cheaper than basic cable. I have the 2 DVD plan which is about $14, or the same as basic cable.
Want to make HTPC mainstream ?
Create a box that will allow the novice buyer to do the following :
Open the package, connect a TV cable (cable company/ direct TV whatever), connect video out lines to the TV (s video or component), then turn on the PC.
Startup screen walks the novice through set up (choosing local content provider, logging of channels, set up of display etc).
Then it will be as reliable as easy to use as a Tivo.
In order for that to happen, content providers from the broadcast and streaming sides will have to agreee to allow their content to be available via computer. Right now there are copyrights, proprietary software, differing standards and host of other issues that prevent most of the content sources from interacting with each other. Hulu pulling content from Boxee is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
Overcome these issues and the masses will buy.
Want to make HTPC mainstream ?
Create a box that will allow the novice buyer to do the following :
Open the package, connect a TV cable (cable company/ direct TV whatever), connect video out lines to the TV (s video or component), then turn on the PC.
Startup screen walks the novice through set up (choosing local content provider, logging of channels, set up of display etc).
Then it will be as reliable as easy to use as a Tivo.
In order for that to happen, content providers from the broadcast and streaming sides will have to agreee to allow their content to be available via computer. Right now there are copyrights, proprietary software, differing standards and host of other issues that prevent most of the content sources from interacting with each other. Hulu pulling content from Boxee is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
Overcome these issues and the masses will buy.
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